[billw55]

I think that most truly religious people, in their hearts, believe that the world would be a better place if everyone believed what they believe. This need not be with an attitude of intolerance; rather, it can be, and often is, entirely altruistic. After all, if you truly believe that yours is the true path to salvation/eternal life/communion with God/etc, is it not a kindness to want this for all people? Indeed, I find it hard to see how a devout believer could not think this way, and remain internally consistent in their beliefs.

Nor is this limited to any particular religion, or to religion generally. It certainly sounds like mikeh, for starters, thinks this way about his own beliefs.

For myself, I definitely do not think that the world would be better off if everyone thinks what I think. I have my opinions but I certainly don't think I have a monopoly on truth. Who is to say which philosophy will bring the most good to society, or which ideas will lead to advances in culture and civilization? So I voted supportive. The world would be much more boring if I could not approach Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, or Atheists alike for their thoughts and insights.

Hmm, I wonder, should Atheist be capitalized?

[dwar0123]

mikeh, on 2012-December-20, 15:25, said:

So how do you differientate kids telling another kid that he will burn in hell, as will his parents, because he doesn't believe in god? or do you think that physical violence is intolerable but that verbal violence is not?

As I see it, we are discussing intolerant parents teaching their intolerance to their children who then verbally bully another child, and you think we should let this go unchallenged?

If my child was actually bothered by it, I would certainly do something, the what would depend on far more details then are presented here.


In the far more likely case that my child is not bothered by it I would hope my child would tolerate the other kids beliefs.

I have to question the sincerity of your own beliefs if you think being told you will burn in hell actually rises to the level of verbal violence. I didn't think you believed in hell.

Also, I tire of the word intolerance. I was merely using the phraseology of the person to whom I was replying. This isn't the best word to describe what we are talking about, it is a loaded term meant to cast the opposing viewpoint in a negative light. Lets use the phrase sincerely devout.

[han]

dwar0123, on 2012-December-20, 14:44, said:

I am not trying to change your viewpoint about religion, we actually agree, I am just trying to point out that I don't think you are really appreciating the other point of view and maybe you should be teaching your kids to be tolerant even of the intolerant.

You keep putting words in my mouth. You claim that I am intolerant to religious people or that I would teach my children to be intolerant to religious people, but that is simply not true. I have religious friends that I like. With some of them I sometimes talk about religion, with some of them I don't. When I do talk with people about religion, I won't say to them that I think that they are stupid (because I don't) or that they are bad people (because I don't).

I will tell them that I think religious institutions are bad, and the people willing to talk about religion with me tend to agree to some extend. Whether they believe that this world has a higher purpose or was created by some higher being really doesn't bother me.

[Fluffy]

I also marked Tolerant, however God in his infinite wisdom won't put me on a position to punnish atheists who burn down churches.

[dwar0123]

han, on 2012-December-20, 16:45, said:

You keep putting words in my mouth. You claim that I am intolerant to religious people or that I would teach my children to be intolerant to religious people, but that is simply not true. I have religious friends that I like. With some of them I sometimes talk about religion, with some of them I don't. When I do talk with people about religion, I won't say to them that I think that they are stupid (because I don't) or that they are bad people (because I don't).

I will tell them that I think religious institutions are bad, and the people willing to talk about religion with me tend to agree to some extend. Whether they believe that this world has a higher purpose or was created by some higher being really doesn't bother me.

It wasn't my intent to say any such thing and if it came off that way I apologize. I am a little puzzled by what led you to think I took anything other then this statement from you.

Quote

In other words, are you saying that because I think that people should teach their kids to be tolerant of other peoples opinions, I would teach my kids to be intolerant of kids who are raised intolerantly?

Most Christians don't read the bible literally. But for those that do, having non-believers hanging around your children can be a scary prospect. I am sure you get a long just fine with most Christians, it isn't them to whom I was referring. It is the one's you don't talk to, probably because the conversations are invariable uncomfortable. The ones to whom you felt it was wrong that they were raising their children this way.

Parents right to teach their religion to their children is protected by the constitution. To my way of thinking, if you outlaw the sincerely devout, you outlaw religion.

[dwar0123]

Fluffy, on 2012-December-20, 17:05, said:

punnish atheists who burn down churches.

Has that ever happened? I have heard of church burnings, but I always thought it was one religious sect doing it to another, or here in the US, whites doing it to blacks for purely racial reasons(ie not religious)

[JLOGIC]

I put in the middle for tolerance, however that is not really true I just didn't know how to answer it. If people start talking about their beliefs then "infuriated" but if people keep it to themselves then I don't care. Everyone has the right to believe what they want, just as everyone has the right to be stupid. However, if people say stupid things then it is annoying. If they continue to claim to be right in the face of all evidence/logic to the contrary then it is infuriating.

I date a christian, my entire immediate family is christian, etc, I know their views and they know mine and we just don't talk about it anymore and in that way I am completely fine/tolerant/whatever.

[Codo]

han, on 2012-December-20, 13:21, said:

Trinidad considers himself a tolerant non-believer. He thinks that telling another kid that he will go to hell because he doesn't believe in god is comparable to saying that you don't believe in god when asked about your religion. After all, both kids are just telling what they think, and it is shocking to the other kid. I don't agree with this, it is not the same.

So, when you teach your children that there is no hell (what you surely do, don't you?), why should your children be frightend if other kids else claims that their parents belive that in such a silliness? For your kids this should be just a kind of mistery novel, nothing real...
And if you follow your own logic, you better forbid your kids to talk about their "belives" too. It must be very frightening for theists kids to hear that there is no eternity.

But besides the logical flaw: I think it is very silly to try to talk about the hellfire with an innocent kid of an atheist.

[Fluffy]

dwar0123, on 2012-December-20, 17:23, said:

Has that ever happened? I have heard of church burnings, but I always thought it was one religious sect doing it to another, or here in the US, whites doing it to blacks for purely racial reasons(ie not religious)

Not yet, but groups of atheists assaulting a church to dance naked on the pulpit has. Doesn't matter much, I don't know how I would react if able to punnish whoever destroyed a millenary buda in the name of some god either.

[dwar0123]

Fluffy, on 2012-December-20, 17:32, said:

Not yet, but groups of atheists assaulting a church to dance naked on the pulpit has. Doesn't matter much, I don't know how I would react if able to punnish whoever destroyed a millenary buda in the name of some god either.

Are you referring to the pussy riot incident in Russia? Wasn't that politically motivated?

[PassedOut]

Codo, on 2012-December-20, 17:29, said:

So, when you teach your children that there is no hell (what you surely do, don't you?), why should your children be frightened if other kids else claims that their parents belive that in such a silliness?

I wonder where folks get this idea of burning in hell anyway. Surely not from the Bible.

Making it up to scare the kids? Reading too much Milton?

[BunnyGo]

PassedOut, on 2012-December-20, 18:37, said:

I wonder where folks get this idea of burning in hell anyway. Surely not from the Bible.

Making it up to scare the kids? Reading too much Milton?

Or Dante.

I'm likely wrong, but I think his comments on people he did and didn't like in Italian society are largely influential of modern societal views on hell.

[PassedOut]

BunnyGo, on 2012-December-20, 19:09, said:

Or Dante.

I'm likely wrong, but I think his comments on people he did and didn't like in Italian society are largely influential of modern societal views on hell.

No doubt Dante played a big part in this too. I didn't realize that the writings of these men had become scripture and are still widely read by fundamentalist Christians.

[Vampyr]

I find the question in the poll "I believe there is a God / Higher Being" slightly strange. It seems to me that if conditions are right for the existence of a god, more than one would exist. I think that hundreds of gods are more likely than one.

[Fluffy]

dwar0123, on 2012-December-20, 17:37, said:

Are you referring to the pussy riot incident in Russia? Wasn't that politically motivated?

No, this happened in Spain

[wyman]

Vampyr, on 2012-December-20, 21:30, said:

I find the question in the poll "I believe there is a God / Higher Being" slightly strange. It seems to me that if conditions are right for the existence of a god, more than one would exist. I think that hundreds of gods are more likely than one.

If the poll asked if you have an STD, would you say no if you had both gonorrhoea and herpes?

[blackshoe]

More apples and oranges

[Vampyr]

wyman, on 2012-December-20, 22:19, said:

If the poll asked if you have an STD, would you say no if you had both gonorrhoea and herpes?

Naturally I would not, but it is the case that the majority of people who believe in gods believe in at most three.

[BunnyGo]

Vampyr, on 2012-December-20, 22:38, said:

Naturally I would not, but it is the case that the majority of people who believe in gods believe in at most three.

All that despite the fact that the bible describes many gods--just one god you're supposed to worship.

[Mbodell]

JLOGIC, on 2012-December-20, 17:26, said:

I put in the middle for tolerance, however that is not really true I just didn't know how to answer it. If people start talking about their beliefs then "infuriated" but if people keep it to themselves then I don't care. Everyone has the right to believe what they want, just as everyone has the right to be stupid. However, if people say stupid things then it is annoying. If they continue to claim to be right in the face of all evidence/logic to the contrary then it is infuriating.

I date a christian, my entire immediate family is christian, etc, I know their views and they know mine and we just don't talk about it anymore and in that way I am completely fine/tolerant/whatever.

FWIW for the same reason I choose Tolerant, No strong feeling either way, and Infuriated. It all depends on the context and the people.