[benlessard]

---

What is your call ?

3H is GF & show extras (my guess is that 2H would be nf)
4D is a cue (not last train) and unfortunatly you dont play serious/Non-s 3Nt.

[gszes]

u have all the side suits controlled and a great side source of tricks
to go along with your 9+ card tump fit. The 5 level will normally be safe
but you cannot safelyy use 4n since p might all too easily bid 5s and
put us overboard. I suggest a 5c bid here to let p know about our slam
interest and they should be able to figure out we were afraid to use 4n
due to our lack of controls.

[Antrax]

gszes, what's wrong with a 4♠ cue?

[PhilKing]

4♥. Stop and think before it's too late. Driving to the five level is not safe in a couple of ways:

1. Partner will accept with ♠Ax ♥AQxxx♦AXxxx ♣x, yet slam is very poor.

2. Five is not safe opposite ♠Ax ♥KJxxx ♦AJxx ♣xx. Playing in 5M is considered bad for a reason.

We need partner to have a pretty big hand for slam to be good (eg Ax AQxxx AQxx xx), in which case he will not pass 4♥.

[Siegmund]

Partner cuebid spades, Phil: he doesn't have xx or Jx, he has A(x)(x). So we are confident we have possibly 1 diamond loser, and then, we care about trump quality only.

Admittedly a 4S cuebid now is not solving all our problems unless we have some nice agreements about either 3NT or 4NT, which apparently we don't.

[PhilKing]

Siegmund, on 2013-March-09, 11:35, said:

Partner cuebid spades, Phil: he doesn't have xx or Jx, he has A(x)(x). So we are confident we have possibly 1 diamond loser, and then, we care about trump quality only.

Admittedly a 4S cuebid now is not solving all our problems unless we have some nice agreements about either 3NT or 4NT, which apparently we don't.

OK thanks, will change my examples before I get flamed.

[Cyberyeti]

PhilKing, on 2013-March-09, 11:37, said:

OK thanks, will change my examples before I get flamed.

You need to change them again, 1 6 seems to be on the diamond finesse and not a disaster in the trump suit or diamond finesse failing and ♥Kx onside, 2 both hands have Q♦, looks like you've treated the given hand as ♦xx rather than Qx.

Axx, KQJxx, AJxx, x is plenty for the slam to be good, make the stiff club the J and it's close to cold.

[PhilKing]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-March-09, 11:46, said:

You need to change them again, 1 6 seems to be on the diamond finesse and not a disaster in the trump suit or diamond finesse failing and ♥Kx onside, 2 both hands have Q♦, looks like you've treated the given hand as ♦xx rather than Qx.

Axx, KQJxx, AJxx, x is plenty for the slam to be good, make the stiff club the J and it's close to cold.

Lol, changed queens to jacks. My post is an advert for multi-tasking.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Even with it's shortcomings, an immediate Jac2NT raise is better than the delayed raise after a 2/1 ... especially if your 2/1 is not GF and you have to JUMP on your next turn to show ♥ support ( and partner doesn't know if it is 3 or 4 cards ). In other words you have not saved bidding space with your low level 2/1.

I structure my Jac2NT so that Opener will FIRST show a 4+ card 2nd suit ( with at least one Ctrl and shortness elsewhere ) . With the next bid, he will show shortness w/or w/o other Ctrls in the remaining 2 suits. This way, Responder will have a wealth of information at the 4-level to make a decision to either go on or sign-off .

Also, the question is: do you, as Responder, want to "give" information or "ask" for it ?

[twoshy]

For me, cuebidding over 3♠ is not mandatory, so we have already announced some slam interest. (I think that most people would be able to infer that 1♥-2♣-2♦-3♥-3♠-4♥ would contain a cue in clubs, assuming a balanced GF with three hearts can bid 2♥ and J2N with four hearts.) As a result, I feel I have shown enough by far, given that at least one of our less important honours (♠K, either minor queen) is certainly not working and often two won't be. It is far more likely for trumps to be the issue. When partner has both rounded aces and good enough trumps for slam to be playable, he will move over my 4♥ sign off. Even a hand as huge as A, KJxxx, AKJx, Jxx (for me he would have RKCB'd with this a round ago) is an anti-percentage 6♥ (and will you really be in a position to convert to a 50% 6NT?) Just because partner might RKCB over 4♠ and bail out in 5♥, that doesn't mean you should be sloppy and make another slam try on this mud. If you happen to play kickback or 3041 then you'll get what you deserve for your second slam try -- partner won't be able to kickback, he won't be able to ask for the ♥Q, he will play you for a better hand, and he will bid a frequently poor slam.

Cyberyeti's Axx, KQJxx, AJxx, x is a hand on which I would move again: x, ATxx, xx, Axxxxx is enough for a 50% slam and this is already a lot of bidding by responder. (Yes the ♥T is cherry-picked but so is the ♥J.) Even our actual hand without the ♠K has a shot at making slam opposite this construction, and we would only get to the five level (and even then only because of what would have been a fatuous 4♣ cuebid). The issues I have are that we have already shown our hand, that the perfect minimum doesn't produce a slam, and some maximums give us at best a 50% shot at slam in hearts. Making another slam try seems too aggressive IMO.

[fromageGB]

twoshy, on 2013-March-10, 05:12, said:

... assuming a balanced GF with three hearts can bid 2♥ and J2N with four hearts.

but unfortunately we are told that 2♥ would be NF.

[fromageGB]

Given that we are where we are, I would ace ask, preferably with 4♠, and if with 4NT RKCB, hopefully with the agreement that 2 aces bids 5♥ with or without the Q. Partner will not be minimum, having started a cue bidding sequence. Mine is that hand that should ask, not his, as while I can find out about his trump honours and his AK of diamonds, he cannot discover my crucial minor queens.

If we were not where we are, I would prefer an immediate GF 4 card support bid such as 2NT (or preferably 2♠) provided that it had a mechanism that allowed opener to show additional strength. Without this, you are in the dark and have to bid with hope rather than expectation.

I think an initial 2 over 1 is OK, provided you have non-serious as part of your armoury, and a 2♥ rebid is GF!
Unfortunately, neither is the case.

[quiddity]

4♥? Time to let partner know that "extras" means a semi-balanced 14-count.

[CamHenry]

quiddity, on 2013-March-10, 19:58, said:

4♥? Time to let partner know that "extras" means a semi-balanced 14-count.

I can't agree enough. If we hadn't already promised extras, or if we had the ♦K, I'd consider a 5♥ trump quality invite.

[Codo]

This is "a semibalanced 14 count"? You have a a running suit, usually only working points and the valuable 4. trump.
Will he pass 4 ♥ with x,AKxxx,Axxx,xx? Maybe not the best slam ever, but it has play. So I bid 4 ♠ and take it from there.

[benlessard]

IMO its a clear 4H. Opener need at least 3 keycards+ Q of trumps (or 6 trumps) and some other extra for slam to be ok and with most of these hands he will bid over 4H anyway.

- 1 keycards
- probably minimum for the extras already showned.
- No singleton
- Qx of diamonds is not working 100% since I have 4 trumps.

Hands like

Axx
KQxxxx
Axx
x

are the only type where you can miss slam if you bid only 4H.

In old standard was 2H forcing one round or NF ?

[FrancesHinden]

We've shown a game forcing hand with a heart fit and extra values.
Any examples suggesting that partner will pass 4H with 3 key cards need a rethink.

[cherdano]

benlessard, on 2013-March-13, 01:07, said:

Hands like

Axx
KQxxxx
Axx
x

are the only type where you can miss slam if you bid only 4H.

???????????

[ArtK78]

benlessard, on 2013-March-13, 01:07, said:

In old standard was 2H forcing one round or NF ?

In old standard 2♣ promised a club suit and 10+ HCP. The 2♥ rebid by responder showed nothing extra, and, therefore, was not forcing.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

This may be one of those hands where you are missing the top 2 trumps .

Opener could have:
♠ A x   ♥ Q J x x x x   ♦A K x x   ♣ x
... especially if Opener's 4D showed at least 2 of the top 3 in his side-suit ( Italian cuebids ) .

If you don't use 4S-kicback RKC for ♥, then 4NT would get a 5S reply with this hand .

Soo, instead, you could bid 5-of-trump ( 5H ) - - asking for 6H with 2 of the top 3 ♥.