[eagles123]

(uncontested)

1D 1H
1S 3C

What is 3C?

Thanks

Eagles

[kenberg]

eagles123, on 2014-May-24, 09:06, said:

(uncontested)

1D 1H
1S 3C

What is 3C?

Thanks

Eagles

I will be interested in seeing what others think. I imagine a case can be made for various treatments. As a default I like to agree that any non-reverse jump to the 3 level by responder is invitational He could have started with a 2♣ rebid (I assume 2♣ followed by 3♣ is natural and forcing) or he could have started by bidding 2♣ over 1♦ (not denying a major as far as I am concerned). So it seems to me that the strong hands can be handled w/o a jump. Meaning, I would think, it is either invitational or weak. I prefer invit, but I am open to opinions. I imagine it shows six clubs.

[Cyberyeti]

Splinter agreeing spades for us.

[hotShot]

My guess is that 2♣ would have been 4th suit forcing not promissing real suit length, So 3♣ should be real clubs and i would expect it to be at least invitational.

[PhilKing]

DNE without agreement. I have played all of the following:

1. Splinter

2. Two-suiter, invitational

3. Two-suiter, forcing

My preference is for 2. Although it has the lowest frequency, it has the highest utility, since the other hands can be handled in other ways.

[eagles123]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-May-24, 09:20, said:

Splinter agreeing spades for us.

What is 4c?

[broze]

eagles123, on 2014-May-24, 09:31, said:

What is 4c?

Must be a void.

[Cyberyeti]

broze, on 2014-May-24, 09:53, said:

Must be a void.

Correct, we play it not only as a void, but as optional exclusion.

[eagles123]

Ok thanks folks, I bid it on this auction with

-
AK763
954
K9543

thought it was invitational forward going

my p hated it

Eagles

[Zelandakh]

2NT is also invitational and forward-going, no? In any case, Phil already said it all on this subject.

[Cyberyeti]

You need to decide whether 2♣ is GF (I think most people do this) or merely invitational as we play.

You also need to work out the difference between 1♦-1♥-1♠-2N and 1♦-1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦/♠-2N if you play it as invitational.

It may also make a difference how you want to bid this if partner has basically guaranteed 5 diamonds and can't have a weak no trump.

[inquiry]

I play the jump to 3 clubs as invitational with clubs longer than hearts. If I had forcing hand with clubs I go through fourth suit forcing then rebid clubs.

[mike777]

eagles123, on 2014-May-24, 09:06, said:

(uncontested)

1D 1H
1S 3C

What is 3C?

Thanks

Eagles

fwiw playing xyz 3c it is nat and weak....long weak clubs. granted a somewhat rare bid but only way to show 4h and long clubs, weakish hand.

undiscussed I will not pass.

[jdgalt]

In my (SAYC based) usage it shows an opening hand, likely with 4-4 hearts and clubs, and denies four spades. He may or may not have a fifth heart (but denies six).

Once he has responded 1 over 1, failing to jump on the second round would deny more than about 10 points.

(I dismiss the possibility of "fourth suit forcing" because anyone who uses that convention is almost certainly playing 2/1 rather than SAYC, and therefore would not have jumped, period.)

[Cyberyeti]

jdgalt, on 2014-May-25, 10:25, said:

In my (SAYC based) usage it shows an opening hand, likely with 4-4 hearts and clubs, and denies four spades. He may or may not have a fifth heart (but denies six).

Once he has responded 1 over 1, failing to jump on the second round would deny more than about 10 points.

(I dismiss the possibility of "fourth suit forcing" because anyone who uses that convention is almost certainly playing 2/1 rather than SAYC, and therefore would not have jumped, period.)

Why aren't you bidding NT if 4-4 in ♥/♣ or is this only with ♣xxxx ?

4SF is used in all sorts of systems as it allows you not to consume needless space by jumping any time you hold a good hand.

[SelfGovern]

I like the four-hearts-long-clubs-weak-hand answer.
There are bids to show invitational or forcing hands
either in hearts, NT-ish, or hearts-and-clubs.

But what if you have xx, Qxxx, x, KTxxxx?

I find it useful to treat the auctions
1D - 1M; 1N - 3C
and 1C - 1M; 1N - 3D
to be similar 4M, 6(+)m weak hands.

[blackshoe]

4SF is not, afaik, part of SAYC.

[Cyberyeti]

blackshoe, on 2014-May-25, 12:33, said:

4SF is not, afaik, part of SAYC.

Glad I don't play it then, everybody I've met (and noticed) in the UK playing SA seems to use it as part of the system with the exception of 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠

[Zelandakh]

blackshoe, on 2014-May-25, 12:33, said:

4SF is not, afaik, part of SAYC.

From page 4 of the ACBL SAYC System Booklet:

Quote

After opener rebids in a suit, a new suit by responder is forcing. If the new suit is the fourth suit, the bid may be artificial/conventional.
1♥ - 1♠
2♣ — 2♦ = one-round force, could be conventional.

[kenberg]

About SAYC and artificial bids:
There is a big difference here between 1♦-1♥-1NT-2♣ and 1♦-1♥-1♠-2♣ in SAYC, Again going to the booklet:

However, after a 1NT rebid by opener, bids of a new suit at the next higher level are non-forcing.
I assume they mean, even though they do not say it, that these new suit bids at the two level are non-forcing if they are not reverses.

My policy, if a pick-up wants to play SAYC, is to clarify whether he includes nmf as part of SAYC. Officially it is not, see above, but many think that it is. But fsf is part of SAYC and is both artificial and forcing.

At any rate, I can see 1♦-1♥-1NT-3♣ being played as weak if 2♣ is nmf. The 1NT limits the hand and you may well want to escape. I play it that way with a partner, the problem is that it never comes up. Think about it. We have a club fit. He has a minimal opener. I have a weak hand. Why aren't the opponents in this auction? Usually they are. Whatever the merits of being able to get out in 3♣, the auction will seldom go that peacefully.


Back to 1♦-1♥-1♠-3♣
If it is played as an invit, I was thinking 6-4. The OP used it with 5-5. My thinking was that maybe we don't have a fit anywhere, and if this is so at least I might be able to cope in a six card trump suit.