[CamHenry]

Playing 1NT 15-17, in a 2/1 GF system, you have the auction:

---

The 2♣ call is Stayman. What do you call?

Supplementary questions:
- Is 2NT Lebensohl here?
- Is double for penalties?

We got a good result but had some disagreement over the hand evaluation.

[gszes]

Nice ting about MP is you can make hair thin doubles and live with the occasional disaster. Leb is not "standard" here but there is no reason to not use it especially at these colors where the odd you have exactly a 2n bid with no desire to x are very small. What do we know about hand so far? P has no 4 card spade suit and no strong desire to x 2h for penalty while expecting at least an invitational hand. This does not bode well for our side from an offensive standpoint since our heart K is looking less and less useful reducing our hand strength to under invitational. It would seem the best two options both revolve around 2h x or not to x. On the plus side of x is it might take as little as J9xx from p to doom 2h to vul doubled MP oblivion. OTOH P might be sitting with nothing more than xxx. Definitely a cruddy idea at IMPS but at MP x seems worth the gamble.

[ggwhiz]

Tough one.

It's a perfect take out double but I don't know anyone that plays it other than penalty. 2♠ should be only a 4-card suit with partner perhaps being able to scramble to 2nt or 3 of a minor or play the moyse.

I try to avoid top or bottom actions but have no idea how to do that here.

[Cyberyeti]

What flavour of stayman do you play ? Can it be garbage ? this affects what 2♠ is

X would be pens from me, if I have an 8 count with 4 hearts I want to do this, although if Stayman can't be garbage, partner has a ToX available so you might want to switch to T/O.

[GrahamJson]

3H surely shows this sort of hand and can hardly be misinterpreted too badly.

[Cyberyeti]

GrahamJson, on 2016-July-20, 02:51, said:

3H surely shows this sort of hand and can hardly be misinterpreted too badly.

It shows this sort of hand, but the question is with a stiff K♥, are you worth it ?

[The_Badger]

gszes, on 2016-July-19, 07:46, said:

Nice ting about MP is you can make hair thin doubles and live with the occasional disaster. Leb is not "standard" here but there is no reason to not use it especially at these colors where the odd you have exactly a 2n bid with no desire to x are very small. What do we know about hand so far? P has no 4 card spade suit and no strong desire to x 2h for penalty while expecting at least an invitational hand. This does not bode well for our side from an offensive standpoint since our heart K is looking less and less useful reducing our hand strength to under invitational. It would seem the best two options both revolve around 2h x or not to x. On the plus side of x is it might take as little as J9xx from p to doom 2h to vul doubled MP oblivion. OTOH P might be sitting with nothing more than xxx. Definitely a cruddy idea at IMPS but at MP x seems worth the gamble.

hi Henry, ( thanks for a great forum question )

gszes excellent reply covers all the bases, in my opinion. Both the questions you pose depend on partnership agreement. The only thing I can add is that the 2♥ bidder has chimed into the auction vulnerable against non-vulnerable in 4th position, in the crosshairs of a strong NT opener, and an unlimited partner. Yes, there are players who would bid 2♥ on tram tickets just for a lead and/or to disrupt the auction, but most will have a decent suit with a potential trick or two outside at these colours. +200 is usually a good result at MPs. We might find it heavy weather trying to make 3NT even if partner has a ♥ stopper. That ♥K looks like such a lonely card

[GrahamJson]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-July-20, 03:03, said:

It shows this sort of hand, but the question is with a stiff K♥, are you worth it ?

I think making adjustments for working and non-working cards can be overdone. Yes, the HK could be waste paper, but then partner has opened 1NT so it could well be pulling its weight. If not, then the remaining seven points should fit well. So, overall I think you are worth going to the three level.

[miamijd]

2NT here is not Lebensohl, because there is no need for a Leb bid here. Leb is used to distinguish merely competitive hands (which go through Leb) from constructive ones (which bid directly). Here, partner knows you have a constructive hand, because if 2C were garbage Stayman, you would pass 2h (maybe gamble a X if your hearts were good).

So 2NT here ought to be natural and invitational.

X in this situation ought to be penalty; what if you have a decent hand with 4h?

You have three reasonable choices here, none of which are particularly appetizing.

You could bid 3d, a game force showing 4S (you did use Stayman, after all), 5D, and likely no heart stop.

You could bid 3H, showing 4S and likely no H stop, with balanced minors.

You could bid 3NT directly and take your chances.

I think I prefer 3D at this juncture to 3h, because if partner has no H stop and we have to play 4m or 5m, it at least indicates that I prefer D to C. It also lets partner bid 3h with a partial stop in H (Qx or Jxx, after which I can bid 3NT with my stiff K).

3NT isn't for me, as I tend to be more scientific, but it's not off the wall, especially at IMPs, because that's the game most likely to make. Partner often shows up with something like

AQx Jxx Kx AQxxx

and 3NT makes easily.

Cheers,
mike

[Cyberyeti]

GrahamJson, on 2016-July-20, 10:24, said:

I think making adjustments for working and non-working cards can be overdone. Yes, the HK could be waste paper, but then partner has opened 1NT so it could well be pulling its weight. If not, then the remaining seven points should fit well. So, overall I think you are worth going to the three level.

It's not just going to the 3 level, it's GF and could leave partner in a really awkward place

[Cyberyeti]

miamijd, on 2016-July-20, 13:30, said:

Partner often shows up with something like

AQx Jxx Kx AQxxx

and 3NT makes easily.

Cheers,
mike

When I bid 3N on something like this overcaller has ♥Axxxxx, ♦QJ10 and I lose the first 9 If that doesn't happen I can easily lose 6 hearts and a diamond or 2 hearts and 3-4 diamonds. Clubs also don't have to split.

[CamHenry]

OK, I'm glad this wasn't clear-cut! The summary of the replies (as I read it) is:
- Lebensohl may or may not be a good agreement in this position and vulnerability; with other vulnerability it is less likely to be useful.
- X is likely to be penalty in most partnerships, which is unfortunate because a TOX is great here.
- 3D is probably GF
- other viable calls are 3H, 3NT, Pass, X

In response to the various questions:
- Stayman could be garbage, but rarely is.
- I decided that the HK was worth around 1.5 HCP on the auction - so I wanted a competitive bid, but decided a GF bid was better than NF.

At the table I chose 3D, thinking it was GF; partner decided it was non-forcing and passed. This worked out well when his hand was

---

3NT only makes because the ♠QT fall doubleton and clubs are 3-3; 5D is no-play as you can't avoid a second diamond loser. +130 was a second top; one of the three pairs in 3NT made it.

Partner's argument was that we should be in 3NT (not certain I agree), because he could have something like Axx/QJTx/Kxxx/AQ - I'm not sure what W would be bidding on, though...

[lig1]

It is against my religion, when the HCP count is at least) 25-15 in our favor, to allow them to play in an undoubled contract. Pard has denied a 4 card spade suit. Even though I might have to swallow the results---I would double for penalty.

[miamijd]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-July-20, 13:41, said:

When I bid 3N on something like this overcaller has ♥Axxxxx, ♦QJ10 and I lose the first 9 If that doesn't happen I can easily lose 6 hearts and a diamond or 2 hearts and 3-4 diamonds. Clubs also don't have to split.

I didn't say 3NT was the right bid (I would not bid 3NT here), only that it has merit and will work out more often than you think.

[miamijd]

lig1, on 2016-July-21, 13:19, said:

It is against my religion, when the HCP count is at least) 25-15 in our favor, to allow them to play in an undoubled contract. Pard has denied a 4 card spade suit. Even though I might have to swallow the results---I would double for penalty.

You can't X against opponents that know what they are doing. Partner didn't X 2H, so he doesn't have four hearts. Thus, the opponents have at least 9 hearts between them. Doubling a 2H contract when the opponents have 9 trumps between them courts -670 or worse.

[msjennifer]

I have already denied a five card spade suit.Agreed ,partner does not have four spades.Certainly, he " can "have three good spades.Considering the bidding so far ,now ,if partnership agreement is 3C by me is extended Stayman GF then does it not mean that 2S by me will be a competitive bid to play in a Moysian fit ?After all 2H may turn out to be cold and pass or double for penalties wifi be ,(1)allowing opponents to play with 25 HCP with us or ,(2)a game swing. If,2S can be treated as competitive nonforcing bid and partner" hopefully" bids 2NT then 3NT might make.I,for one,would surely like to make this slight worthwhile adjustment in a rather "rigid" Stayman as is used by majority today. I also gave a thought of bidding 3D to show 4/5 in S/D ,but the D suit is too weak and likely to be taken as GF.

[Thiros]

3♥

Partner doesn't have four spades, and doesn't have four strong hearts (didn't double). I'll hold to my intention of moving to game and let partner pick the best place. Partner could bid 3NT with something like four hearts to the 10 but wouldn't double 2♥ there.