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Forcing NT - What does this sequence mean

#1 User is offline   jh51 

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Posted 2011-January-12, 12:19



Assume the following:
System is 2/1 GF
1NT opening is 15-17
The 2NT shows 17-18 HCP balanced

What, if anything, should 3♠ mean? Or is this a bid that simply cannot happen?
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#2 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2011-January-12, 13:00

I never have seen it. I guess I could speculate that it is the ace of spades and a hand that was going to make a three card limit raise had the auction gone 1♥-1NT-2♣. I suppose he figures that if opener now bids 3NT and he corrects to 4♥, opener will figure it out.

But I dunno. Looks like a "guess what I am doing" bid. Maybe he pulled the wrong card from the box. I wouldn't pass. :)
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#3 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-January-12, 13:53

Barring special agreements then both minors.
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#4 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2011-January-12, 14:12

I would guess that South is short in spades and is trying to avoid 3NT unless North has an antipositional stopper. Which kind of implies both minors, but would possibly also offer a 5-2 heart fit.
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#5 User is offline   the_dude 

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Posted 2011-January-12, 14:19

View Postmgoetze, on 2011-January-12, 14:12, said:

I would guess that South is short in spades and is trying to avoid 3NT unless North has an antipositional stopper. Which kind of implies both minors, but would possibly also offer a 5-2 heart fit.


Without a prearranged agreement .. that was my guess.
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#6 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2011-January-12, 14:56

Without agreement, it should be natural (good 3 cards, worried of a minor?). However, since opener will now bid 3NT like 110% of the time, responder may then bid something to clarify what he meant by it.
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#7 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2011-January-12, 18:55

Both minors.
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#8 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

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Posted 2011-January-12, 19:13

Minors without any other agreements, probably heart tolerance as well, but definitely short ♠ and less than 3 hearts...
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#9 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-January-12, 19:17

Why definitely short spades? What would one bid with xx x AQxxx KQxxx? We might make 6 of a minor, so I'd bid 3S showing the minors.

Yes we are known to have less than 4 spades and less than 3 hearts from the auction, and yes if we have a shortness it's more likely to be spades than hearts since we are limited to ~12 and partner is 18-19ish, and we might be short in both, so we will often have short spades but I don't think that 3S really says anything about spades.
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#10 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2011-January-13, 00:15

View Postjh51, on 2011-January-12, 12:19, said:



Assume the following:
System is 2/1 GF
1NT opening is 15-17
The 2NT shows 17-18 HCP balanced

What, if anything, should 3♠ mean? Or is this a bid that simply cannot happen?


I would think that it showed a hand with 5-5 in the minors, game forcing after your 2N call. (have not looked at other replies yet, sorry if this is a repeat)
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#11 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2011-January-26, 02:35

imo it must be both minors, like in the sequence 1♥-1NT-2♥-2♠.
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#12 User is offline   BobElliott 

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Posted 2011-January-26, 08:40

I play this as a 3 card limit raise of ♥ since 3♥ would be 5-7 pts w/3♥.
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#13 User is offline   jh51 

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Posted 2011-January-26, 09:07

View PostBobElliott, on 2011-January-26, 08:40, said:

I play this as a 3 card limit raise of ♥ since 3♥ would be 5-7 pts w/3♥.


Would I be correct in assuming that you play a direct raise as constructive, i.e. 8-9(10?) w/3♥?
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#14 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2011-January-26, 09:38

View Postjh51, on 2011-January-12, 12:19, said:

Assume the following:
System is 2/1 GF

View Postjh51, on 2011-January-26, 09:07, said:

Would I be correct in assuming that you play a direct raise as constructive, i.e. 8-9(10?) w/3♥?

You stated that the system is 2/1. Constructive raises are part of 2/1...
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#15 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2011-January-26, 10:06

2/1 is not clearly defined. Several treatments are either in or not in 2/1. I don't know what % of 2/1 players play constructive raises, but it is definitely not 100%, or anything close. The only thing that is part of 2/1 is that a 2/1 bid establishes a GF (except, perhaps, if responder rebids his suit).
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#16 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-January-26, 12:34

View PostFree, on 2011-January-26, 09:38, said:

You stated that the system is 2/1. Constructive raises are part of 2/1...


I am not sure. It is a treatment i believe. But i know a lot of people who dont like it much, and definetely hates it by passed hand.

I believe it is more common in europe though.
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#17 User is offline   jh51 

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Posted 2011-January-26, 13:10

View Postgwnn, on 2011-January-26, 10:06, said:

2/1 is not clearly defined. Several treatments are either in or not in 2/1. I don't know what % of 2/1 players play constructive raises, but it is definitely not 100%, or anything close. The only thing that is part of 2/1 is that a 2/1 bid establishes a GF (except, perhaps, if responder rebids his suit).


Which is precisely why I asked whether BobElliot's methods included contructive raises. I have read discussions of 2/1 that argue strongly against using constructive raises. I have not incorporated them into the methods I typically use with my partners, but I am aware of them.
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#18 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2011-January-26, 17:18

Huh? With a limit raise I bid 4♥ in this auction, no matter what the rest of my agreements are.
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#19 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2011-January-26, 19:15

The following auction is an extention of the "Impossible Spade" :
1H - 1NTF!
2H - 2S! = both minors,weak or invitational.

( Ken Rexford has written about this ... in his Cuebidding series ).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

3S! in the present auction probably should mean the same.
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#20 User is offline   peachy 

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Posted 2011-January-26, 20:25

View PostFree, on 2011-January-26, 09:38, said:

You stated that the system is 2/1. Constructive raises are part of 2/1...


Not true. It is a matter of agreement, not an automatic part of 2/1. It is giving no headaches to play whatever major suit raise structures one chooses, none of them obstruct the system at all.
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